Episode 163: D&C 63 – Section 87
Read along with us at JoelAKuhn.com/dc-compare
First, a discussion of an apologist view of why chapter 84 isn’t a false prophesy. Second, Joseph predicts a civil war, as well as a plague and an earthquake. Does this make him a prophet? Ehhhhhh…….. probably not.
Read every apologetic Mormon argument ever at FairMormon.com
Read listener Scott’s commentary on Chapter 84 at http://3scriptures.com/
Presidential is a fabulous history podcast by Lillian Cunningham of the Washington Post
Fair Mormon explanation of Joseph’s temple revelation from chapter 84
Drink count – 6, or about 1 beer
Support the show by becoming a Patron over at Patreon.com/MyBookofMormonPodcast
Drop me a line at comments@mybookofmormonpodcast.com
Podcastriarchal blessing: Stephen A.
Podcastriarchal music is Our Happy Life by Maps and Transit, edited for length
My Book of Mormon 
June 17, 2017 at 7:56 pm
Hi again! So, the topic of prophecy in Mormonism was something that was near and dear to my heart as when I was a still a Christian and Bible literalist fundie. Hearing about Joseph Smith’s (and others’) failed prophecies is something that drives the average Christian crazy because Mormons always seem to know how to muddy the waters and change the rules enough to make everything ambiguous. Any time they can create plausible deniability they pass the responsibility back to average believers, saying things like “Pray and see if it’s true,” “Find that burning in your bosom,” “Faith isn’t about facts,” “We mustn’t turn truth or facts into our idol,” and so on.
If Mormons approached the Bible as the word of God and took Scripture literally, here are some of the verses which would show them the qualifications of a prophet. (Of course, personally I now see everything is always murky and nuanced, but hey, if you believe in God of the Bible you can’t go changing the rules, right?) Isaiah 40:8 – “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
So, here are some Bible verses. Not only on prophets specifically, but also about false teachers. There are a lot of verses to quote but just got get a general idea:
• A prophet is only a prophet if his prophecies come to pass. If even one fails, he is a false prophet. False prophecies = lying in the name of God = death sentence.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
(Just think of all the prophecies different people have made over the years, like the end of the world in 2012, yet they don’t stick on mainstream Christianity because none were Biblical.)
• If a prophet leads you away from God, he’s a false prophet.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Christians would argue Smith clearly lead people away from God and the Bible and towards himself and his magical new religion, instead.)
• The New Testament says there are false teachers and prophets. It says we should prove all things, meaning nothing new from God should contradict what he’s said in the past. This is why Christians don’t easily convert to Mormonism, btw.
2 Peter 2
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21
Quench not the Spirit
Despise not prophesyings.
_Prove_ all things; hold fast that which is good.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and _searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(The heresy of calling God himself flesh and bones, Jesus a mere brother, condemning the words of God himself found in the Bible, not actually proving his prophetic powers, constantly contradicting scripture instead of studying and teaching it…)
• A true prophet or teacher will never preach or prophecy another Gospel or anything contradicting God’s word – let alone Christ’s words and what he did.
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(These verses alone are a pretty powerful case against the entire Book of Mormon and the story of Jesus coming to the Americas, lol)
I know all this is coming off as really fundamentalist and, really, all the stuff I’ve studied and learned over the years is worthy of being trashed. But my fascination and love for history and religion remains, even while everything else for me is now gone.
Sincerely,
Annalisa
June 18, 2017 at 9:25 pm
Maybe Joseph Smith was just off a little with his prediction of an earthquake due to slavery. The New Madrid earthquake happened in Missouri in 1812. God was closer to Joseph’s birth than the end of slavery. This quake was probably still in the minds of people. The Mississippi ran backward.
June 19, 2017 at 1:42 pm
I’d never heard of that particular earthquake, thank you for mentioning it. I don’t understand the earthquake connection to slavery? What do you mean?
June 19, 2017 at 3:52 pm
That was some weak apologetics from Scott. First he kept referring to section 84 as 83. Second, just read verse 4 (which Scott inexplicable refers to as 2a). It clearly says that city of New Jerusalem will be built starting at the place that the temple will be built in this generation.
June 19, 2017 at 5:06 pm
I’m pretty sure the 2a is because prior to 1876 it was the first part of verse 2. 1876 versions onward it’s verse 4, because consistency is…. it’s just not a thing.