Episode 165: D&C 65 – Section 88 Part 2

July 1, 2017


Episode 165: D&C 65 – Section 88 Part 2

Are you fasting??? You should be. Proselytize all the time!!! If you aren’t seeking god, then you are hosed. Eclipse, earthquake, stars will be knocked out of orbit, bad storms with big waves, women are evil. Skip to verse 99 for useful information about resurrections, which isn’t at all helpful for the upbuilding of Zion, but whatever, get over it. Marie is going to die at the 7th trumpet.

Check out Preston’s project at MoHos.

Wrath Wines Vineyard

Patron bonus episode: Marie meets missionaries!!!!

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Podcastriarchal blessing: Emerson
Podcastriarchal music is Our Happy Life by Maps and Transit, edited for length

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9 Comments on “Episode 165: D&C 65 – Section 88 Part 2”

  1. Sean Bates Says:

    Here we are, with citations (as many as I could)!

    Eschatology of Resurrection [ Mormon Style ]

    D&C 88 must be correlated with Alma chapter 40… and if you need ANY evidence that Joseph Smith wrote this book, just compare the language of this section of D&C with the voice used by alma… same run on sentences, same doubletalk, same “i don’t know” phrasings… (“whether it be x or y, it mattereth not” or “whether it was p or q, I do not know, but god knoweth”)
    Go pull it up in a second window… browse through it… it’s amazing:

    But essentially, when a person dies their spirit leaves their body. That spirit either goes to a state of paradise or a state of prison … when they’re trying to speak nicely of those non-paradise souls, they call it prison (such as how Peter refers to the people in the time of Noah who led good lives but were unaware of the gospel, whom jesus preached to “in prison” (1 peter 3:19-20) otherwise they call it Outer Darkness (as alma does in v 13).

    The spirit Paradise is the dwelling (or state) of those who have accepted the gospel and are worthy and waiting for their resurrection.

    The first resurrection began with Christ (the first official resurrection). This resurrection initially included many saints who rose from their graves (we don’t hear much about that, but it was one of the miracles concurrent with christ’s resurrection in the bible… matthew 27:52-53, the zombie apocalypse of the bible)

    It seems that God calls people to be resurrected at will, as Moroni, Peter, James, and John the Baptist, and Elijah, and many others were described by joseph to be resurrected beings with bodies of flesh and bone.

    At the second coming, the rest of the saints in paradise will be called up to be resurrected…basically if you’re all sealed and endowed and stuff, you’re all set to be called up and resurrected at the second coming (though i imagine there might be a long line…. I just got done sitting through THREE college graduation ceremonies and they are LONG…)

    Next… you could call it the 1st resurrection part 2… (or part 3… i know not but god knoweth :P) is for those who were given their ‘saving ordinances’ after death. There’s temple work and stuff involved in order to be resurrected, so there’s some work to be done before that will be finished… and several apostles have said that will be the majority of church work in the millenium… finding names of people who have died, doing temple work… more and more temples… there are even urban legends about ward and stake buildings being remodelled into temples… a LOT of sitting around listening to the same audio recordings over and over lol but we’ll have a few billion people to find and save.

    The next resurrection (second-proper) will be the resurrection of worthy spirits to the Terrestrial kingdom. Good folk who like their Coffee or just didn’t feel like holding to every jot and tiddle of the celestial laws.

    And last, after the Millennium (thousand years of Christ’s reign after the second coming), comes the resurrection of those who have “suffered even as [Christ] has suffered.” (D&C 19.) Anyone who doesn’t follow Christ and accept his atonement must suffer for their own sins, even as christ has… apparently the mandatory minimum is 1000 years because this won’t happen until after the Millennium is drawing to its end. These souls spend the whole time in Spirit Prison, or Outer Darkness (as Alma calls it).

    Lastly, as mentioned in D&C 76 and elsewhere, anyone who is absolutely exempted from a resurrection (son of perdition?) either remains as they are in Prison / Outer Darkness, or gets cast to an even outerer more darker darkness.

    Kleon Skousen, mormon author who wrote the “* thousand years” series, gave a fantastic talk, aided by many references, that backs this up:

    “In fact it says there [in Alma 34-42], that if there had not been some way to get us back to the presence of the Father, and it had been left to the Father, and he had been helpless to get us back, we would have ended back in outer darkness with Satan and his hosts. We would have gone the same route they went. And everything that had been organized by the Father in connection with us: our Earth, the other Earths (on which part of this family is located) and all the creations connected with it would have disintegrated and gone back to outer darkness, disorganized.”


    Bryce and Marie, you guys rock! ❤


    • Duke of Earl Grey Says:

      Looks like Sean beat me to the punch, and well done!

      I didn’t have much more to say on the matter of the various resurrections, since I already left my thoughts about that in my comments to D&C 45, Part 2, and my hope all along was merely to lazily link back to them: https://mybookofmormonpodcast.com/2016/10/08/129/#comments

      I guess I’ll point out that the reason Bryce only ever heard about two resurrections is because that’s how many the Bible talks about, the resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation. Though LDS doctrine wants various resurrections at different times, and to different degrees of glory, it has to divide up those two resurrections into subgroups, so as to not contradict the Bible. The first resurrection, spanning various times from the resurrection of Christ down until just before the end of the Millennium (during which mortals will still be born, live, and… well, not “die”, but get resurrected into immortality in the twinkling of an eye, as the saying goes), is for the Celestial and Terrestrial folks, and the second resurrection is for the Telestial and Sons of Perdition, at the butt-end of the Millennium.

      And one more fun point about Mormon end-times. The battle at the end of the Millennium between Satan and Michael, recounted in D&C 88:111-116, and totally cribbed from Revelation 20:7-9, is referred to by Mormons as “The Battle of Gog and Magog”.


  2. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    The LDS church is pretty cagey about the washing of feet. They’ll proudly say that only they understand fully what Jesus was doing on that occasion, that it was more than an example Jesus was giving, but a sacred ordinance, which has now been restored in the church, but they never get any more specific than saying it’s only performed in the temple nowadays. As our pompous friend Bruce R. McConkie summed it up, “Obviously the apostate peoples of the world, being without revelation to guide them, cannot comply with our Lord’s command given on the occasion of the last supper.”

    I expect most of us were taught that the apostles, on occasion, ceremonially wash each others’ feet, or at least get their feet washed at the time they’re initiated into that quorum, but I don’t know any citation for that, and it might be mere speculation based only on the cryptic hints we’ve been given.

    But apparently the washing of feet is an important part of the second anointing, the crowning temple ordinance which the church doesn’t even publicly admit the existence of in any straightforward manner. The regular old temple endowment tells us we’re being anointed to “hereafter” become kings and priests to the Most High God (and women are anointed to become queens and priestesses to their husbands), and we all assume that’s only supposed to happen after we die. But those who get the second anointing are straight-out ordained, then and there, as kings. Damn hell ass kings! This is often referred to as getting your “calling and election made sure”, a scriptural phrase the LDS church also gets really cagey about.

    The second anointing occurs in the Holy of Holies, that most exclusive room in the temple which very few people get to enter, where many members like to believe the president of the church also has personal interviews with Jesus. This may be the only existing photograph of the Salt Lake temple’s Holy of Holies, taken over a hundred years ago:

    Mormon Stories did a five-part interview with Tom Philips, a former LDS stake president in Great Britain, who recounts his experience receiving the second anointing.


    Tom believed that receiving the second anointing would involve his seeing Jesus. If we go back to D&C 88:3 really quick, it says “I now send upon you another Comforter”. That doesn’t refer to the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the first Comforter. This is talking about “another” Comforter, and this is supposed to be a personal visit from Jesus Christ, in the flesh.

    After all, according to Wikipedia, fount of all truth, Joseph Smith once said, “no one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something, and this can only be done in the Holiest of Holies”.

    (TMI, Joseph! TMI…)



    • Sean Bates Says:

      Hmm… Since this is still pretty public I’ll go ahead and limit myself to saying that I was surprised, and yet *not* surprised when I started hearing accounts from apostles (like Packer and Eyring specifically) talking about how, when they got called to be apostles, they didn’t suddenly have any new revelations, they didn’t behold any grand visions, they had the same testimonies they’ve always had…

      I personally think it’s been quite some time since any apostle (or prophet) has felt epistemically comfortable uttering the phrase “thus saith the Lord” in preamble to any new policy or announcement…


    • Gottfried TheHirsute Says:

      Thanks for posting that photo, Duke. I remember standing in the Celestial Room in the Salt Lake Temple, staring at the door that opens into the Holy of Holies (which is, interestingly, camouflaged somewhat with large potted plants – so as to not draw too much attention, I guess?) and ‘knowing’ that Jesus himself had stood only mere inches away from where I stood on the other side of that door. It felt powerful at the time. Those types of feelings are what keep people in the Church in the face of (f)actual knowledge.

      That was also the time that my wife and I and her cousin accidentally got ourselves locked in the temple after hours and got escorted out by one of the Church’s “Secret Service” men through the tunnels under the streets that connect the temple with the Church Office Building. But that’s another story… 😉


    • Jake Says:

      If i remember correctly Mr Phillips had to travel to the temple where his 2nd anointing was done and jon huntsman sent one of his corporate jets to pick him up and take him there.


  3. Sean Bates Says:

    Also, Marie… Mormons are usually pretty familiar with the iconic song performed by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, The Battlehymn of The Republic.. though this song was admittedly written in the early 1860, it is based heavily on biblical imagery, especially:

    “Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
    He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
    He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
    His truth is marching on.”

    God really likes trampling on them grapes of wrath…

    I’m not sure if that means he’s trying to destroy the vintage, or if he’s trying to press it into a perfect quality while he uses his… lightning sword?

    I dunno, you can keep the Wine of Wrath, I’ll take the cool Lightning Sword. (omg does Jesus Like Star Wars? I hope he does… if he does I’m totally gonna go hang out at his place in the Terrestrial Kingdom)


  4. Gottfried TheHirsute Says:

    Looks like Sean and Duke both beat me to the punch 😉

    I’ll add my two cents’ worth in the form of what I call Mormon Folk Eschatology. My wife and I were discussing the other day that we are probably the last generation who grew up expecting the call at any moment from the Prophet to leave our homes and walk back to Missouri. This possibility was as real to us as was the prospect of nuclear war with the Soviet Union – in fact, they would probably be interrelated events.

    As the story went, the United States would keep increasing in wickedness, but Salt Lake City would be the most wicked city of all (Satan’s opposition to the Church, you know – where there’s the most righteousness, there’s also the most wickedness). As the nation devolved into chaos, the Constitution would be “hanging by a thread” but ultimately saved by the Elders of the Church (listen to the intro to Naked Mormonism to hear a snippet of this for yourselves if you haven’t already). Just exactly what was meant by “hanging by a thread” or how it was to be “saved” was never made clear.

    As the events of the Book of Revelation began to transpire, the key event would be the Battle of Armageddon where the Soviet Union and the United Nations would mass their armies to attack Israel (for a Mormon perspective on how the establishment of Israel as an independent nation and the Six Days’ War are fulfillments of Biblical prophecy, see Cleon Skousen’s “Fantastic Victory” [Bookcraft, 1967]). Just at the moment when it looks like Israel will be destroyed, Jesus (in red robes, signifying that he has “trodden the winepress”) will descend upon the Mount of Olives…

    BUT, before that there will be a secret, great council meeting at Adam-Ondi-Ahman attended by 144,000 elders as well as Adam (the “Ancient of Days”) and Jesus himself (the ‘first’ Second Coming). At this meeting, all the priesthood holders will return their “keys” (i.e. the power to act in Jesus’ name) to Adam, who will then return them to Jesus (I guess making him “all powerful,” as if he wasn’t already. Again, the reasoning was never really made clear).

    At this point, the call from the Prophet would go out to all the faithful members that it was time to return to Missouri to build the City of Zion in preparation for the descent of the New Jerusalem from heaven (which may or may not include the City of Enoch) and the return of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel from the North (where they have been held in seclusion in an undiscoverable green valley somewhere in the Arctic regions since 722 BC. Oh, and they’ve been keeping records this whole time, so there’s going to be a LOT of temple work to be done!). It’s the job of the tribe of Ephraim (i.e. the LDS Church) to care for these millions (?) of people, so there are houses to be built, crops to be planted, etc.

    But then there was still the pesky problem of Missourians – you know, the people who already live there. No problem, there was an apocryphal prophecy of some sort of plague or destruction so that “there won’t be a yellow dog left to wag its tail in all Missouri.” Problem solved. But that meant that it would be a while before crops are ready, so you better have TWO YEARS worth of food stored and you better have camping gear, warm clothes and good shoes ready for the long walk (What, you think you’ll drive? You think gasoline will be available? Hah! But wait, how am I supposed to carry two years’ worth of food while walking? Details, details, o ye of little faith!)


    Now, all this is well and good, except for the fact that people took this seriously. My wife and I personally know of multiple instances as the year 2000 approached of people selling their homes, cashing out retirements and life savings, pulling their kids out of school and moving to Missouri to “get a jump” on all the excitement that was to come. Some groups even attempted to reinstitute the United Order (Joseph and Sidney’s communal property scheme made ‘eternal principle’) amongst themselves. This usually led to financial ruin with the resulting divorces and broken families.

    The problem grew to the point where the Brethren in Salt Lake had to issue a statement to be read over the pulpit in Sacrament Meeting (at least in Utah and, I suspect, Idaho) telling people NOT to move to Missouri. Of course, in the process of doing so they managed to include some good ol’ victim blaming by saying that all the financial and personal ruin was the result of the people not waiting for the Prophet’s call – but when that time came, then it would all work perfectly. Sure. 😉

    The “walking back to Missouri” narrative was still a defining element of Mormonism when I joined the church in 1975. In the 90’s, the word went around that new stake centers were being designed so as to be converted into ‘mini-temples’ when the time came and that “Zion” was now defined as being “wherever the Church is,” therefore going back to Missouri would now no longer be necessary. I guess it only took 160+ years for the Brethren to accept that fact. Arrière-garde, n’est-ce pas? 😀

    PS: Glad to be back from hiatus!


    • Sean Bates Says:

      My mom keeps grabbing all this prepper crap… saying “we may need it when we have to walk to Missouri!”

      And I’m just thinking … a) Quit reading those damn Work and the Glory novels… they are fiction, not prophecy… and b) Why don’t we just *move* to Missouri, if you’re so certain?

      Thanks for covering this, Gottfried… I have never once been interested in the geographic stuff. I always ignored the fluff, and i think that started either with someone telling me that Eden was in fucking Missouri, OR it was the part where the footnotes in the Book of Moses (PoGP) Tell us that we shouldn’t get too attached to particular names, because there were likely NEW rivers called tigris or euphrates after the flood… as well as multiple cities of Enoch, etc etc… ughhh just no

      Trying to put actual place names to revelations is a fun hobby that has kept people saying “THE END IS NEAR!!!” for nearly 2000 years.

      The closest we’ve come since the Restoration was in 1914… and I know the JW’s had that one pegged as well… but somehow we made it through that, on through WWII and vietnam.. *sigh* It’s the only subject I’ve dismissed with a serious apathy lol


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