Episode 101: D&C 6 – Section 7-9

December 7, 2015

Episodes

Episode 101: D&C 6 – Section 7-9

Poor ol’ Oliver. God gives him a gift, then snatches it away. I’m still not sure if he knows what he’s supposed to do. Also, we have some confusion about what the gift was in the first place. It was either some sort of rod, or a male human. See if you can figure it out!

“Drink” Count – 21

3 and a half beers

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10 Comments on “Episode 101: D&C 6 – Section 7-9”

  1. St. Ralph Says:

    I still think the “then vs. now,” original vs. modern reading format is very much worth doing. I love the way references to divining rods just dropped out over the years. What I really wish we had are recordings or transcripts of the processes that went on behind closed doors in the church office building that resulted in “updates” to the Scriptures. Those stories, at least as told verbatim, are lost forever, I’m sure. All we can do is infer the path from A to B. In that respect, we’re very lucky to have A and B to look at, otherwise, those with an ax to grind could simply deny that there ever was an A.

    I exist to be entertained; keep the episodes coming. Thanks!

    Reply

    • Ephima Morphew Says:

      Revelation: Mormons Mutter on mormon matters.
      Now we know why, murmur and murmuring of murmurings is revealed by the still small voice that mumbels on and on to be manifest in the burning belly.
      I have an easier time believing in Harry Potter than Joseph Smith; atleast Harry had a broomstick.
      Poor Oliver, the lackey of a psychopath imbued with the power of revised revelation allows for retroactive time travel.
      Hi St. Ralf, your good will and spirit is rewarded by being entertained I hope –– Thanks Bryce and David, your fans are many.
      A postulate I came across: http://www.scari.org/Mormons.Undecided.html
      Mormon Philo-Semitism is inspired by
      the Melchizedek Priesthood and the Levitical Rites afforded the worthy. Mormon Judeophilia is Holy Envy by Latter Day Saints to bind their putative Heavenly Father to the Abrahamic Rock of ages, By Divine Right Mormon Exceptionalism is Imagined America on steroids and it’s all right to do it but don’t get caught.

      Latter Day Saints wait fo the moment when grow-or-die meets Godzilla

      Reply

  2. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    D&C 7 stuff first:

    OK, apparently Bryce’s memory has inadvertently embellished his knowledge of the temple ceremony, and though he may have exaggerated or gotten some elements wrong, he wasn’t ridiculously off base, I guess. Elohim and Jehovah do read off a litany of the various animals they’re going to be creating, including “the lion, the tiger, the bear”, yes, in that order, and even with Jehovah’s voice inflections presaging the Tin Man a bit (oh, my!) But he’s talking to Michael, who is identified in the temple ceremony as the pre-mortal Adam. Peter, James, and John aren’t shown to have anything to do with the creation. They do show up later on, though, going incognito as (?)random dudes(?) on an errand from Jehovah to see what mischief Satan is up to on Earth, but then they declare themselves and their authority, and cast Satan out of their midst. After that, the ceremony has nothing even mildly entertaining to offer.

    Peter, James, and John allegedly ordained Joseph Smith to the Melchizedek Priesthood in June 1830 (exact date unknown, I wonder why…) That is, I’d say, indeed the reason the later version of D&C adds so much material missing from the 1833 original. Joseph apparently hadn’t told anyone about this ordination yet, and only later saw fit to do so, perhaps after he had reason to make up such an event, after 1833.

    John is the only one of those three that never died, and like the Three Nephites, he is hanging out on Earth to this day, it’s believed. Peter and James died, though, so when they came to visit Joseph Smith, they must have done after being resurrected first, like Moroni.

    Lastly, you guys mixed up your Jameses. James brother of John was one of the twelve apostles, and he gets killed by Herod in Acts 12. But James, brother of Jesus, makes an appearance or two later on in Acts, so he’s definitely a distinct character in the story. But Mormons consider Peter, James, and John to be the “First Presidency” of the church in their day, and running the show, whatever authority Jesus’ brother apparently had.

    Reply

  3. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    D&C 8-9 stuff:

    I’m glad you guys did these chapters together in one podcast, because they are inseparable, the very peanut butter and jelly of Mormon epistemology. Or rather, when church members ask, “How does revelation work?” these sections are all they’re ever really taught on the matter, as if it’s the least bit helpful. And if you’re the type of church member who can never honestly claim having received a burning in the bosom, then they’ll point back to where it says “I’ll tell you in your heart AND in your MIND, stupid!” (paraphrasing) You think the Holy Ghost is just limited to heartburn? He can also put thoughts in your mind, and there’s the answer to your prayer! (Or, just spit-balling here, possibly those could just be my own thoughts, the kind I always have…)

    In seminary, when we read D&C 8, and it didn’t make any sense, I asked what the gift of Aaron was supposed to mean. The teacher quoted something by our good friend Joseph Fielding Smith, who was an apostle, church historian, later Prophet and President of the church, and a sly bastard:

    “There was another gift bestowed upon Oliver Cowdery, and that was the gift of Aaron. Like Aaron with his rod in his hand going before Moses as a spokesman, so Oliver Cowdery was to go before Joseph Smith. Whatever he should ask the Lord by power of this gift should be granted if asked in faith and in wisdom. Oliver was blessed with the great honor of holding the keys of this dispensation with Joseph Smith, and, like Aaron, did become a spokesman on numerous occasions. It was Oliver who delivered the first public discourse in this dispensation.”

    Do you like how he just casually mentioned Aaron’s rod at the beginning, knowing full well what the original revelation said, but not deigning to impart that knowledge to our impressionable ears? Or was Joseph Fielding Smith himself so internally conflicted, perhaps, that he actually convinced himself that the gift of working with the rod of nature simply meant being a better public speaker than Joseph Smith? I kind of doubt it.

    Reply

  4. Mr. H. Says:

    Is “using excess Patreon funds for donations to the Taylor Scholarship” still a thing? If so- could we get an upadate on the donated amount? (I think the last update was after you finished the BoM) … if not… that’s also cool!

    In any case! Have a drink on me! Let’s make it a shot- you deserve it! “for, for!”

    Reply

  5. help3434 Says:

    Read John 21:21-23. It suggests the John is supposed to live forever, but is ambiguous.

    Reply

    • St. Ralph Says:

      It is really interesting. It had to mean something to somebody to have been included and then survive all of the subsequent edits, but to “live forever” implies that “tarrying” means to live and that Jesus is never coming back (which may be the case, but I don’t think they thought that then). It’s a fascinating tidbit in any case.

      Reply

  6. T Says:

    If I could make a humble suggestion.

    I think you are currently doing two different podcasts at the exact same time.

    Podcast 1

    A fascinating podcast discussing each section of the doctrine and covenants. If I might say it awesome.

    Podcast 2

    A fascinating analytical journey analyzing the evolution of Mormon Doctrine between the 1833 D&C and the new D&C. You could even do the same thing where you analyze the differences between the original book of mormon and the current book of mormon. Here is a link that shows the differences between the two versions of the book of mormon.

    http://www.mazeministry.com/machine/index.htm

    Problem

    I love the podcast 1 but I completely lose track of the conversation and what is being discussed when you switch into the podcast 2 mid verse. I’m usually running on a treadmill while listening so my though process goes like this.

    “That’s an interesting angle on this section. Oh yeah those are both different I wonder why. Wait… what is this section about and what are we reading again?”

    It is like having 2 different tv shows that you are watching at the exact same time and flipping back and forth between the channels all while I’m running on a treadmill. I don’t multitask that well.

    My humble suggestion to this problem

    Both of you read and analyze the current D&C section entirely then, after you are done reading the entire section, you both open up the link below which has the differences highlighted and you talk about the differences together.

    Here are some resources you can use to quickly compare the differences together.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ItuDdVWOO8X2JqTlVCb3E5dTg/view

    I got that link from this reddit post.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3tb25d/book_of_commandments_vs_dc_a_sidebyside_comparison/

    Here is the 1833 D&C

    http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/?target=XF2CFF566-6C5F-42B9-8E03-9E90F68622C4

    Reply

  7. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    The Book of Mormon translation. Guess which depictions were commissioned by the church…

    Reply

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