Episode 187: D&C 86, Section 109 part 2 (Kirtland Temple Dedication)

December 16, 2017


Episode 187: D&C 86, Section 109 part 2 (Kirtland Temple Dedication)

Cody Noconi joins us from the Psilly Rabbits Podcast to discuss possible entheogen use during the Kirtland Temple dedication. While nothing actually interesting is said during the actual revelation, basically everything surrounding it is fascinating.

Drink count – 0


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2 Comments on “Episode 187: D&C 86, Section 109 part 2 (Kirtland Temple Dedication)”

  1. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    This dedicatory prayer addresses God by several titles, including “Holy Father” and “Jehovah”. This is confusing from a modern Mormon standpoint, since Jehovah is always identified with Jesus Christ, not God the Father. So either JS was not as picky as the modern church about never addressing prayers to Jesus directly (only to the Father in Jesus’ name, doncha know), or he had a very different idea about which member of the Godhead Jehovah really is.

    It goes without saying that LDS temple dedications nowadays are nowhere near as exciting as the (alleged)-hallucinogen-laced-wine-drinking party that was the Kirtland Temple dedication. Today’s dedications are basically mini-sacrament meetings, with a long dedicatory prayer as the keynote, so you know they’re really interesting…

    I’d say the only notable similarity with the Kirtland dedication is the ritual called the Hosanna Shout, said to have been given on that occasion in 1836. But don’t take my word for it. Let’s listen as Gordon B Hinckley, beloved predecessor to the current beloved prophet, explains it all:

    Somehow, I expect the Kirtland saints were a little more boisterous in their shout than our contemporary LDS friends. More like the Hosanna Mumble…Mumble… if you ask me.


  2. The Willinghammer (@twillinghammer) Says:

    I’m new to the podcast and I’m unique because I’m a believing active member of the Church. So, you can take my opinion for what it’s worth. I understand that my opinion is going to be through the lens of a believer. However, I hope to offer a different point of view than is commonly given in these podcasts. During this podcast, it appears that the belief that something must have been used for Visions to occur had to have happened (which makes sense if you don’t believe in visions than logically something had to be used to create the hallucinations). The following are some issues with the claim that psychedelics were used to create visions at Kirtland.
    The first issue, the theory that JS used psychedelics has zero actual evidence. No statement by family, friend or foe has stated this claim. Claims from people who left the Church are only to alcohol. There is not one statement, that I’m aware, of JS ever using psychedelics. I know there are claims that people at the time, especially Native Americans, used them.
    Second, most of the early member of the LDS Church would not have drunk in excess. JS drank. But many of the people who claimed visions were people who there is no record of them ever drinking other than maybe sacrament wine. Most LDS early converts were poor extremely devout Christians. Throwing them under the bus with the leadership is a difficult argument to make. Especially when there is little to no evidence.
    Third, claims to drunkenness at the event come years later. Some decades. Often with the stories of drunkenness are much more elaborate years later. I find it interesting that on this podcast JS is ridiculed for any change to his story, revelations or visions but when claims are made against him that change they are embraced as being more reliable. Fourth the visions happened over multiple days. Is the claim that he kept doping members? The period was filled with visions and a lot of times members have visions that are not even associated with Joseph Smith. On one such occasion, JS shows up and members are having visions on their own and he has to rebuke them and claim that he is the only one that speaks for the Church. Is the argument that members knew to use psychedelics on their own but never write about it?
    The best argument for doping is that when JS dies visions become rare. It appears he had a “power” that others do not have.
    My opinion, maybe JS used psychedelics but you have to believe that on faith because there is no evidence for it.


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