Episode 68: 3 Nephi 20-21

February 22, 2015


Click to Listen: Episode 68: 3 Nephi 20-21

Scott and David rack their brains for an hour trying to figure out what in the world Jesus is talking about. Sadly, I’m not sure if we even get close. Seriously though, has anyone been able to make sense of all this babbling? I don’t know how much longer Jesus is going to stick around, but it kinda feels like he’s outstayed his welcome.

“Drink” Count – 25 (this includes the 12 Verily’s)

A little over 4 beers


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13 Comments on “Episode 68: 3 Nephi 20-21”

  1. Duke of Earl Grey Says:

    Since apparently no episode is complete until the Duke of Earl Grey has commented on it (no pressure, Duke), I’ll do my best to humorously but accurately explain what the hell Jesus is talking about here. (Be warned, this will be effin’ long…)

    First off, “be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord”. It doesn’t matter what the original context of this Isaiah verse was, and it doesn’t matter what the Book of Mormon context is. The only thing this phrase really means in modern Mormon thought is, “Young men, don’t masturbate, don’t watch porn, and especially don’t stick your dick in anything, then come to church the next day and presume to bless and pass around the sacramental bread as if you’re not an unclean sinner.”

    But now, to the main point we go. Jesus says he’s going to speak concerning “this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel”. So whenever he talks about the remnant of Israel in these chapters, he’s not really talking about the Jews. He’s talking about the Native Americans, who are the descendants of the Nephites and Lamanites (unless someday something called DNA evidence comes along to disprove it, but I don’t see how Jesus could have known anything about that.)

    Anyway, the “Gentiles” mentioned are of course the European settlers, who are going to come in and all but destroy the Indians. The Europeans also had been (and would continue to be) busy for centuries killing the Jews. The Lord had been merciful to the Gentiles, and had let them come into the covenant of Christianity, with a responsibility to bring the Jews to the knowledge of Christ (with the Spanish Inquisition being one of many notable successes on their résumé…) But all kidding aside, the Christians were much more successful here in the Americas, where after killing 90% of the remaining Lamanites with germs and the sword, they forcibly converted the rest of them to Christianity. Of course, that was merely Catholicism, and not yet the “fullness” of Jesus’ Gospel.

    So Jesus said a sign would be given, to show that the time was ripe when God would remember his covenant, and the remnant of Israel (Indians! and yeah, maybe Jews too, but we’re not talking about them right now) would be given back the land of their inheritance. “And behold, this is the thing that I shall give unto you for a sign…” [blah, blah] “…when these things which I declare unto you…” [blah, blah, BLAH] “…shall be made known unto the Gentiles…” [three more verses of not getting to the point] “…it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced…”

    When “these things” that Jesus is declaring come to the Gentiles, that is the sign. What are “these things” Jesus was declaring. They are THE BOOK OF MORMON! The Book of Mormon is the MARVELOUS WORK that shall come to the Gentiles, declared by a man, Joseph Smith. They shall not hurt him, but he shall be marred (and for the life of me, I can’t remember any apologetic argument which explains how the assassination of Joseph Smith when he was 38 years old constitutes “he shall be marred” but “not hurt”.)

    So there’s your sign, Gentiles, and Jews, and American Indian Lamanite Israelite kinda-Jews! The Book of Mormon is here to prove God is still talking to you through prophets, so will you listen to it? “Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words…[“me” being Jesus Christ]… which the Father shall cause him [Joseph Smith] to bring forth until the Gentiles… (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.”

    Sorry, Gentiles. Just being a Christian isn’t going to hack it anymore. Once you’ve received the Book of Mormon, which contains the words of Jesus Christ, you have to accept it as true, or else you are cut off from the covenant. (Thanks again, missionaries, for making everyone’s lives better by bringing them the words that will damn them.)

    [Psst! Listen up. This is the whole point of the Book of Mormon. It’s not about telling you how to live better. It’s nothing more than “proof” that the Mormon church is true. If it convinces you of that, but serves no other function, it’s already done its job.]

    Then there’s some woes declared unto the Gentiles, who, if they don’t repent and accept the fullness of the Gospel as offered by Mormonism, will be destroyed by the uprising of the remnant of Jacob [Israel], with God’s blessing. Or, in other words, the Indians will be as a lion in the midst of the Americans, and will tread them down and tear them up. (OK, George Custer might agree, but this seems like an exaggeration.) But the Gentiles who do accept the fullness of the Gospel (Mormons, yay!) will not be destroyed by the Indians, but as adoptive Israelites, the Mormons will join the righteously indignant Indians (and any other Israelites that might happen to come along, which could mean converted Jews) to build the New Jerusalem. Because of course as soon as the Indians hear about the Book of Mormon, how they were special all along because their ancient daddies were from Jerusalem instead of from some Siberian land bridge, they’re going to flock to Mormonism. We’ll be seeing this happen any day now, I’m sure.

    Where’s the New Jerusalem going to be built? Sorry, no spoilers…


    • Yarjka Says:

      Here is a pretty good source for finding the believers’ reading of each verse:

      For this section (pp. 100-101) we can read of several candidates for “the one who will be marred but healed.” They include Christ, Joseph Smith, and Israel, among others (and the assumption is that all of the above are true). One justification for Joseph Smith’s candidacy reads as follows:

      “The work of Joseph Smith demonstrates that he fulfilled that which the Lord required of him. As prophesied in Isaiah 52:13, on the one hand he has been extolled by the Saints, yet on the other hand, hardly any man has been maligned and misrepresented as much as Joseph Sith. Among other things, he has been called a money-digger, a dreamer, a liar, an imposter, and a lunatic. During his lifetime he hardly knew a period without persecution….Through the work of Joseph Smith, the nations of the earth have been “sprinkled” or blessed with many missionaries and messengers of salvation. Many people, including the great ones of this earth, have heard or will hear the message of the gospel.”

      I think the idea is that he was marred many times, but was continuously healed to allow him to fulfill his mission of restoring the gospel. That he eventually died is to be expected, since he is mortal.

      However, Victor L. Ludlow’s other proposed candidate is too good not to share [keep in mind that this was written in 1982, when the church still proclaimed that all Native Americans are Lamanites that are actually turning white and delightsome upon conversion to the gospel]:

      “Another modern prophet might be this promised servant. As Christ comments on Isaiah’s words, he says that when the latter-day Lamanites begin to grow in their knowledge of the restored gospel, they will know that the Father’s work is being fulfilled with the house of Israel. When that day comes, he continues, kings will be speechless at the great work declared by a man to the people. Christ describes his servant of the last days as one who will be marred yet healed by the Lord.

      “The description can easily be applied to President Spencer W. Kimball. Evaluating President Kimball’s inspired leadership, one notes a very dramatic increase in missionary work, especially among the Lamanites. He has no equal in bringing Christ’s word to the Gentiles and Abraham’s posterity. Indeed, the gospel is being “sprinkled” among many new nations as more countries open their doors and as kings and rulers see and hear things that have not been told them or considered by them earlier. President Kimball has helped “gather many nations”, as people throughout the world are joining covenant Israel.

      “It is well known that President Kimball has probably suffered more physical ailments than any other latter-day seer. Yet, in spite of a larynx marred by cancer, boils and sores, and numerous heart attacks, he has always made remarkable recoveries. “Yet I will heal him,” says the Lord. God has healed President Kimball many times so that he can visit the many nations of the earth and deliver his message to hundreds of thousands…”


  2. Roger Says:

    Guys, I loved the Charlie Hebdo comment. I think I need to learn french so I can read Hebdo…


    • johanges Says:

      My understanding is the it isn’t enough to know French, you also have to understand the many cultural and current event references. Sometimes items in the background can make a sly comments on the person being caricatured.

      So, probably not even enough to speak French and live in France, you have to be up to date with current events too…

      (No wonder people misinterpret or completely miss many of the jokes.)


  3. Tina Says:

    More trivia from me… On the issue of “sheaves,” it’s one of those myriad “harvesting” references. I somehow managed to learn an old Southern Gospel song called “Bringing in the Sheaves” when I was a kid. (I certainly didn’t learn it at LDS Primary. I think my mom taught it to me.) I thought the song preceded Joseph Smith, but it’s apparently from the 1874. JS would have known the original biblical reference in Psalm 126:6, “He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.” Here’s Tennessee Ernie Ford’s version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u67Lb1RyXTU


  4. Ephima Morphew Says:

    “Yey verily, I smite thee with unknown unknowns to herald his presence.”
    And he sayeth, “I Maketh thee exceeding sore by the labor of understanding; the fruit of knowledge partaketh and Yea Drink and Drink yet another for Jesus in Zarahemla –– his blood runeth over.
    Yea though I confuseth the repentant it is by the hand of Mormon and the Divine Right Right with signs and wonders to be given unto you for sport and pleasure to confuse the devout. The whoredoms of the priestly will rule for our father Elohim in the universe of the unwashed.”
    We understandeth the unreliable narrator is always the one who giveth the best biblical stories while smiling that knowing smirk that keeps the devout guessing.
    “Hear me true, as ifeth me thinketh thee are exceeding sore by the labor of understanding hense forth Temple worship is commanded by me your master, commander and ruler of all things both here there, through the veil forever and ever everywhere.”
    His parting shot cometh, hense as Jesus sayeth, “”Health in the navel, marrow in the bone, strength in the loins and in the sinews, power in the priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generation of time and throughout all eternity forever and ever. Oh God hear the works of my mouth.”

    I would postulate the insular and peculiar device of the manichean mysticism and an unreadable Mormon Bible gave permission for almost any kind of human behavior.



  5. Greg Maeser Says:

    The whole hierarchy thing between the Father and Son is very confusing in the BoM. Don’t feel bad, Mormons don’t understand it either.


  6. George Greene Says:

    In the early 17th C English which J. Smith copied, mostly of course from the King James Bible, “ward” was equivalent both etymologically and semantically to “guard.” The Tower of London’s Yeoman Warders (Beefeaters) guard the tower and its prisoners (if any). So “rearward”–which was part of the paraphrase of Isaiah 52:10 in which the KJV rendering was “rereward”–was what we would call the “rear guard.” In other words, god has your ass (arse for you Brits) covered.


  7. johanges Says:

    I was thinking about the usage of the word “closet” in some recent passages (e.g., 3 Nephi 13:6) and what that could have been in ‘Reformed Egyptian’ as the word comes from Old French. Did Native Americans really have closets, and when did they lose the technology? The same time as steel and horses presumably.


  8. Paolo Says:

    What’s so fun about this podcast is that you are trying to interpret this “holy” book without having had the Mormon script and interpretation given to you. Therefore, to use a Mormon phrase, “you are left to your own devices” to try and ferret out some sense. After listening to every episode, it is painfully clear that there really isn’t much to this book in terms of either understanding Mormonism or in being able to establish some sort of morality/ethics that would make my life better.

    Having grown up and been a member in this religion for almost 6 decades, it is amazing to me what I thought the Book of Mormon contained; Yeah (drink!), even the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    BTW, It seems that you and Scott had plenty to drink before starting this podcast. I don’t think I’ve ever detected you so drunk on any previous podcast. Between that and the incoherent babble of the Creator of this universe, no wonder you couldn’t understand any of the deep doctrines! 🙂


  9. colddodger2015 Says:

    Thanks for the shoutout David.


  10. bdjevestigio Says:

    Ok fellas. This stuff is easy. The Gentiles are going to run over Israel in the new world (nephites, lamanites et. al.) because the chosen people suck and are iniquitous. Written after the fact. The Gentiles will be a scourge if the chosen people f it up. Conveniently.


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